Same diamond, different internet sites Options

[grad1]

Hello,

New diamond seeker here. I just purchased a princess cut from Mondera 3 days ago (hasn't shipped yet). Then doing some more looking around today I found that the EXACT same diamond (same cert.) is for sale on 3 other sites. And one is selling it for almost $100 cheaper!
So do all these sites have the same supplier? What are the chances that Mondera will cut down my price if I call them and ask them about it? Thanks for any responses.

[barry]

You've just stumbled on one of the worst kept secrets of internet diamond sales: It's called "Virtual Diamonds" or VD, for short.

A diamond manufacturer or manufacturers make their diamond inventories available to a multitude of internet diamond websites. These website owners may or may not have any experience in the diamond trade, and indeed several current diamond website operators come from fields such as computers and business administration and know little if anything about diamonds, per se.

The diamond you choose is drop-shipped directly from the manufacturer to you, the vendor you've purchased from never sees it and hasn't got a clue. He's just a middleman, running interference for the manufacturer, and any questions you might have about the stone has to be relayed. In most cases, very rudimentary information about the diamond is supplied on the website. Your request for additional reports and/or photo's won't be honored because the supplier just doesn't have the time, equipment, or the inclination.

I'm sure if you contact Mondera, they'll be receptive to giving you a price break. That is certainly preferable than losing out on a sale to their VD competitor.

[JamesAllen]

grad1,

That's excellent news! You've stumbled onto the holy grail. You've just found out that you can buy the "EXACT" same diamond for less money. Think about it. If you knew of two BMW dealers in two seperate towns that were selling the same "EXACT" BMW for different prices. Would you willingly buy the more exspensive option? Probably not. So use this information to your benefit. This time, it's not that significant. You said that Mondera's listing the same diamond for $100 more. That's not a lot. I'm sure that they would lower their price to keep your business. So you may not need the internet this time around. However, you now know that it's possible to get a high quality diamond on the web at a better price. So whenever your in the market again for diamonds or jewelry check the internet. Chances are you'll get a better deal. This isn't to say that the retail stores aren't being fair to you, it's just that they may have more expenses which drive there prices higher. So look at this as a good thing, not a bad thing. You may have just saved yourself $100.....

[barry]

The analogy is lacking.

BMW is a brand with a rich tradition and a proven track record of excellence. The BMW car stands for quality workmanship and top-flight engineering. Mention the BMW name and you know.

VD diamonds can significantly differ in quality because of the paucity of information provided. Consumers may very well end up paying more for less .

Sure, we all want to save money but not at the expense of quality, and certainly don't want to sacrifice quality where your gal is concerned.

[ben]

Allow me to expand the analogy further.

The same BMW automobile, but you have a choice of buying it either from an authorized BMW dealer, or from a private individual that you do not know. Further, suppose that both parties offer exactly the same warranties.

From where would you buy?

Is the difference worth $100?

[Princess Tess]

I've known about this for awhile and it's one of my favorite games to play.

I call it: "Spin the Diamond"

It's amazing to me how large a range you can find among internet jewelers "offering" the same diamond. Your $100 is peanuts.

Princess Tess

[barry]

Ben;

I'm not quite sure I understand...are you saying that a private can offer the same quality warranty as an authorized vendor that has the muscle and resources of the parent company's support and backing??

[ben]

No, that's exactly my point.

Same everything -- but one offer is from an authorized, reputable dealer, while the other is from a private individual whom you do not know. Even with same everything, there should most definitely be a price difference in favor of the dealer, who will actually be there to back the warranty and the product.

[JamesAllen]

Barry,

Honestly speaking, MOST buyers will pay "more" for "less" simply by shopping in retail chain stores. Although, there are many legitimate fair jeweler's in this country that have good prices as well as high quality diamonds. It's no secret that many walk-in jewelry stores have little to no quality to offer though. However, I'm sure that there are also many online companies that have little to no quality to offer a customer as well. I'm not saying that this applies to ALL though. Your comments tend to lump every online company that lists a virtual inventory of diamonds together. That's not fair to do. The point that I want to make is this. A customer can certainly get a BETTER diamond at a BETTER price by shopping online. Here's a perfect example....

I myself bought my wife's engagement ring just a year and a half ago. Here's what I bought ONLINE.

-Three stone PLATINUM princess cut diamond engagement ring.
-Center diamond .71ct.
-Side diamonds .27ct each.
-Total Weight 1.25ct
-Quality of diamonds:
GIA graded
D-color
VVS2-clarity
Depth-71.8%
Table-69%
Polish-Very Good
Symmetry-Excellent
Culet-None
Girdle-Med-Slightly Thick
Flr-None
-PRICE of complete ring $3,800
-Appraised for $7,700

So here's the catch. Within a week of buying this ring I went into a few local "chain" retail stores just to see what they would have had similar. First of all, there was no one locally to me that had similar quality and I'm talking about DC, MD, and PA. Most retailers had three stone versions of my wife's ring, BUT look at the difference of quality and price. I'll use one example in particular.

-Three stone WHITE GOLD princess cut diamond engagement ring.
-Center diamond .50ct
-Side diamonds .25ct each.
-Total Weight 1.00ct
-Quality of diamonds:
NON GRADED (not certified)
I/J-color
SI2/I1-clarity
Depth-???
Table-???
Polish-???
Symmetry-???
Culet-???
Girdle-???
Flr-???
*No "CUT" information was known nor recognized by sales people there.
-PRICE for complete ring $5,000
-Appraisal-Unknown

Compare this retail store ring with what I bought ONLINE. There's no comparance. I believe MOST customers will find this exact same fact of life. When you do your homework and shop online you will not only find BETTER quality but also BETTER prices for what you want. There are online companies that can provide MORE information about a diamond nowadays than a typical retail store can. So the customer can also be given a higher education about what they are purchasing by shopping online as well. The days of the old "puppy dog" effect are over. Customers aren't as willing to open up their wallet at the first pretty diamond in a store anymore. They want to know about the "cut" and who graded the diamond and where it came from and how it compares to others when value is applied. They want to see photos and data reports that identify with the exact nature of the diamond in question. This is what the internet is set up to do, provide information. I could make a bet with you that you could pick at random 10 retail stores today to walk into and most likely 9 of them wouldn't even know what a sarin report was, or the difference between GIA, AGS, EGL, IGI, HRD, and others who maybe who the even are. They also may have difficulty recognizing the word "ideal-scope" or crown and pavilion agles. I could keep going on, but I'll stop boring you.

So all that I'm saying is be fair. Just as I am not lumping ALL retailers together don't lump ALL internet companies together. I believe that customers should do their homework and decide for themselves who can offer the better service and over all quality as well as prices. Don't preach against those who virtually list though. Come on........

Much Love,

[barry]

I think you're very conveniently steering us away from the original question posed by grad1; and that is: Why is it that the same diamonds can be found on multiple websites with different prices. The answer, as I pointed out is very clear and it does not indicate that I am guilty of "lumping" as you contend.

The quality issue on these VD diamonds is moot. "Quality" cannot be ascertained solely by "numbers" off a Cert. This is a "belief" that is very rapidly being challenged and shown to be inaccurate with current technologies that very accurately measure Cut and Light Performance. The Cert is problematic as well, with GIA and AGS being the top labs and others not as consistent in the accuracy or consistency of their color/clarity grading.

Can you get quality VD diamonds. Sure. I never disputed that in my previous answer, above. The main point is that the majority of VD vendors don't know diddly squat about diamonds, never see the diamond because it is directly shipped from the manufacturer, and are put into a very uncomfortable position if the client has complaints about the quality of the diamond they have received. To whom does the client go to for satisfaction and answers to their questions? The VD shipper who has never seen the diamond and wouldn't know what to answer even if he did see the stone? or the manufacturer who doesn't want to get involved in the retail end of the sale?

Everything is fine and dandy for the drop shipper so long as there are no problems. Heck' many of them don't have to get out of their pajamas in the A.M.. They role out of bed and into the basement, log on, and find they have sold a VD overnight which will be shipped directly from the Mfgr. who has received the C.C. order. Sounds Great!... 'Course it does...until there is a problem; then the sticky hits the fan.

We all know of the many "Buyer's Remorse" threads that populate these diamond internet forums, many of which arise from VD customers whose VD diamonds turned out to disappoint their expectations. Getting satisfactory resolution is a daunting and many times aggravating task when the buck can be easily passed off to someone else in the selling chain.


If saving a few bucks is paramount to a consumer, then OK, buy a VD diamond.

But in this realm, my advice is to buy the diamond, not necessarily the price; and buy from a reputable vendor that knows his diamonds and is there to back his product to the hilt and work to resolve any issues that may occur. If this can be accomplished with a VD diamond at a price that you're happy with, fine.

Buy informed. Knowledge is the power to buy quality.

[JamesAllen]

Barry,

Here's the thing though. There are Virtual Diamond listers "LIKE US" that do provide the customer with each and every benefit that a reputable jeweler or retail store could offer, and maybe more. We not only virtually list them but also have the ability to view them as well. How, we simply ship the diamond into our office. We have trained GIA staff. We also have a OGI which allows us to run sarin reports on each stone. We also provide full digital detail of the diamond as well as an ideal-scope image if needed to qualify the light performance of the diamond. We can also bring the customer into our office to view the diamond. We can also ship the diamond to an appraiser for the customer to view seperately on their own before the purchase has been made in order to receive a third party evaluation. We also give customers a full money back return policy, which fortunately is not something that we have to worry about that much seeing that we have less than a 5% return ratio. I would say that this proves that not all Virtual Diamond listers are simply rolling out of bed and turning on the computer and selling what they know nothing about. Each of us drove 30 minutes to get to work today and has two or more years of diamond education under our belts. So it's more than just a hobby, it's our life. Are there Virtual Diamond listers or internet companies that fit your description, sure. I'm just saying that everyone shouldn't be lumped together because that ultimately leads customers to fear which they should never have when considering companies to do business with. You said that you weren't lumping us all together though, so I believe you. I just wanted to clarify to potential buyers that will read this thread that not all companies that virtually list fit the description of the company that you described. We are there for our customers just as much if not more than any reputable jeweler that you could name.

I'll conclude with a quote from your post.

"But in this realm, my advice is to buy the diamond, not necessarily the price; and buy from a reputable vendor that knows his diamonds and is there to back his product to the hilt and work to resolve any issues that may occur. If this can be accomplished with a VD diamond at a price that you're happy with, fine."

This CAN be accomplished. So to the customer that is looking to make that special purchase, don't allow yourself to be told who to buy from anymore. Do your homework and find the company that best suits your needs wheather that it with a retail jewelry store or an online internet company. Once you fall in love with that diamond shop around and make sure that you are getting a fair deal. I can't think of a greater tragedy than paying more than what you should. Don't we do that enough in life?

Good luck and I wish you all well....

No hard feelings Barry....I still love ya

[barry]

Jim,

"Hard Feelings" ????

'Course not! I love ya too, and glad to see that you "STILL" love me too
Friends are very hard to find in this Industry. .

Not exactly sure though why you would infer that I was talking specifically about YOUR company and why the defensiveness??

I didn't say or imply anything about your company, and I'll say again that I'm not "lumping" anybody together; I think this is quite clear from my postings......

To be honest, upon reviewing this thread until this point, you and I are not even arguing, just stressing two different aspects of the same bottom line.

Hey, if you want to take the opportunity to use my straightforward comments to the consumer's question as to why the same diamond is listed on multiple websites, as a means of plugging your company and policies, I'm glad to have obliged ....Don't let me get in your way; after all that's what friends are for

[JamesAllen]

Barry,

Sorry man, I didn't know that I was coming across defensive. That was definitely not my intention. I also know that you weren't talking specifically about DCD or lumping us into your description of "VD" listers, but you never know what the (potential customers) readers of these threads are thinking. So I was mainly clarifying the "VD" listers side by using a few examples of what we provide to the customer to point out that not all "VD" listers are the same. I agree, I don't think that we were arguing either. I also think that we were stressing or representing two different aspects of the same bottom line. Also, one last bit of confusion to clear up, It's not Jim that your talking to, it's Josh. You may know me as "JC" or "JMC" on the other forums. I simply use "DCD" as my username on this forum. Just an fyi....

[barry]

Josh,

...And all this time I thought I was talking to Jim; Owner and President of DCD.

Glad to make your aquaintance though!

Wow!, so you must be one of the guys who travels 30 minutes to work everyday.

So how can we "still love each other" if we haven't even met until now?

Nice to meet you, and please send my best regards to Jim.

[JamesAllen]

Yep, an hour everyday. I wish that I could just roll out of bed though...hahaha. I've always read your posts on here and the other forums. You always seemed like a good guy. Your known to have a good reputation as well. I've enjoyed and learned from your posts in the past. So I guess that's where the "I still love ya" was coming from. However, it is nice to finally formally meet you. I just told Jim that you said hello. He wanted me to say hello and wish you well....

[barry]

Thank you very much for your kind words.

[Urlik]

Did I miss the group hug?

[barry]

Jump in, Urlik, we got room for one more.

[Princess Tess]

Okay, and like, I thought gurls talked a lot!! Sheesh.

Princess Tess

[denverappraiser]

Josh,

I have several comments on your post, none of which relate to grad1’s original question so I've waited to add my reply. This is probably going to disqualify me for the group hug…..

You describe your ring as ‘Three stone PLATINUM princess cut diamond engagement ring’ and the alternative ring as a ‘-Three stone WHITE GOLD princess cut diamond engagement ring.’

It’s true that metal cost is an important element in the desirability and value of a ring but it is far from the ONLY element. In high quality pieces, the labor and design components are usually both more significant. Making a value conclusion based on nothing more than the primary metal content is clearly flawed. Assuming that a platinum ring is, by nature of it’s material, better than a white gold ring is completely ignoring the whole point of the ring.

You quote an ‘appraisal’ value without the slightest suggestion clue as to what market is being discussed, by whom and under what conditions this theoretical sale is to take place. This is equivalent to saying that ‘some guy said that an unnamed jewelry store might ask $7,700 for it.’ This may be true but it’s irrelevant. What store? Is this store actually GETTING this kind of money or simply asking for it? Do they actually sell items like the one being discussed? Is there other value being supplied by this theoretical store? Customers, and even many appraisers, tend to badly misunderstand the appraisal process and posts like this from professionals makes it worse. This is not useful information. An appraisal is a description of a piece of property and an estimation of how it should be expected to relate to a particular marketplace. Taking the number out of context as you have done renders it worse than useless.

You are assuming that the store that supplied less information was concealing the fact that this information, if reported, would be bad. I don’t think this is a valid assumption. Not all customers are interested in becoming diamond experts and actually most people are not all that interested in examining this information. Most ask for it because they fear being cheated and because diamonds are basically a blind item for most buyers. The fact that the store did not include it in their sales presentation is not necessarily a bad thing. For many of the best stores, the value that they are adding is precisely that their experts will make these kind of decisions and the consumer is trusting in the store to make them wisely. It is possible to buy quality merchandise for a fair price from a storefront dealer. I guess this is what you are calling the puppy dog effect. It's certainly possible for a dealer to abuse a customers trust but it's not inherent to the system. You also mention that 9 out of 10 jewelry stores are left wanting in this area. On this we can agree. I think it’s probably even greater than that. I just did a google search for ‘discount diamonds’ and got over 2.5 million hits. Most are online dealers offering what they call good diamonds at good prices. What percentage of these do you estimate are up to the standards you are discussing?

The decision to maintain a local presence (or lack thereof) is not what makes a good jeweler.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA